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There will not be an interview posted for the week of 2/26 due to technical difficulties.

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Dr. Elias Medeiros Feb, 19, 2007

Welcome to Twoth.com we are speaking with Dr. Elias Medeiros, the Harriet Barbour Professor of Missions at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, MS. Dr. Medeiros has been an ordained minister of the Gospel since January 1975. While in Brazil he worked in pioneer church planting (rural and urban). He also taught at several theological institutions in Brazil, including the Presbyterian Seminary of the North, and was Dean at the Evangelical Missions Center. In addition to numerous articles, he has written Teaching Them to Make Disciples of All Nations and Missiology as an Academic Discipline in Theological Education. Dr. Medeiros is deeply committed to evangelism through every member of the body of Christ

Dr. Medeiros has earned the following academic degrees:

Seminario Presbiteriano do Norte, Th.B.
Reformed Theological Seminary, M.A., D.Min., Th.M., D.Miss.
Highland Theological College Ph.D. (Cand.)

Having taken your classes this is a real treat to share you with the world. Let's get to it:

Chris: Born and raised?

Dr. Medeiros: Northeast Brazil.

Chris: Family?

Dr. Medeiros: I am married for 32 years with Fokjelina, a beautiful Dutch young lady. We have three children (all married as well) and two granddaughters, for while.

Chris: Currently living?

Dr. Medeiros: Somewhere in God's world, but most of the time somewhere in Mississippi.

Chris: Favorite book(s)?:

Dr. Medeiros: My favorite is the HOLY BIBLE.

Others: John Piper, Let the Nations Be Glad and When I Don't Desire God: How to Fight for Joy; Will Metzger, Tell the truth: The whole gospel to the whole person by whole people;
Michael Green, Evangelism in the early church;
Thomas Boston, The art of manfishing: A Puritan's view of Evangelism;
Ajith Fernando, The Supremacy of Christ;
Richard F. Lovelace, Renewal as a Way of Life: A Guidebook for Spiritual Growth;
George Eldon Ladd, The gospel of the kingdom (although I consider myself an amilenialist); John Stott, Between Two Worlds;
Martin Lloyd-Jones, Preaching and Preachers;
Calvin's Commentaries; Also every good well-written and researched Christian (evangelical) biography.

Chris: Being Brazlilian I've gotta ask...what's your favorite food or drink?:

Dr. Medeiros: Brazilian "churrasco."

Chris: Interpretation = Brazilian BBQ. Especially grilled meat.

Chris: Favorite hobbies?

Dr. Medeiros: Soccer, beekeeper (African bees), and carpentry

Chris: Ah taken up hobbies after Charles Spurgeon heh? You know Spurgeon was a beekeeper.

Chris: Favorite place to frequent?:

Dr. Medeiros: My "closet."

Chris: Favorite web links?:

Dr. Medeiros:

www.desiringgod.org;
http://www.ccel.org;
www.truthforlife.org;
www.bibleplaces.com;
www.greatcommission.com;

Chris: Quote that stirs your heart:

Dr. Medeiros: "'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'" (Jesus).
"But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works" (Asaph).

Chris: Were you always reformed? Tell us a little about your road to reformation.

Dr. Medeiros: I do not remember a time in my life when I was not aware of being Reformed. By God's grace I have always been reformed and always reforming.

Chris: What does a typical day or week look like for Dr. Medeiros?

Dr. Medeiros: I have no typical day. But during the workdays I wake up around 6:45 AM (when I have classes at 8:00 I try to get up at 5:30 AM) spend at least two hours meditating on and praying through the Scriptures. Pray for myself, family, RTS students, faculty, staff, friends overseas, unconverted friends, etc. Spend some time writing comments (verse by verse) on a book of the Scriptures. Check my to-do-list for the day and plan to finish at least two or three of those goals for the day. Review the classes to be taught at RTS. Pray to meet students (bookstore, library, corridor, etc). Pray for a daily opportunity to encourage someone and to share my faith in Christ with an unbeliever somewhere.

Try to have lunch every day with my wife with whom I have been in love for more than 32 years. At least three times a day I check my e-mails and answer them. The amount of e-mails is relatively extensive. But I used e-mails in order to correspond with godly servants of the Lord in USA and throughout the world. Besides, e-mails may be a blessed means to minister (and to be ministered by) to brothers in Christ as well was to unconverted folks. Spend time reading (and taking notes from) books and articles related to my teaching, writings, and spiritual growth. After dinner I work with some Brazilian students whom I teach over the internet (www.fitref.org).

I spend every weekend preaching the gospel somewhere in God's world and try to minister overseas at least once a year.

Chris: How big is your personal library?

Dr. Medeiros: I do not count my books. My first library I donated to a Brazilian theological school in 1990. At that time it was around 2,000 volumes.

Chris: What volume are you most proud of owning?

Dr. Medeiros: None in particular. Except the Holy Scriptures and some copies of the Bible (in English and Portuguese) that I have used and written some notes in.

Chris: Do you read a lot? Are you a fast or slow reader? We want to know about you as a reader.
Dr. Medeiros: Yes, I read a lot. I believe I am both a fast and a slow reader. It depends on the kind of literature I am dealing with. But most of the time I want to read slowly. As James Sire wrote: read "world-viewshly." Reading trying to understand the assumptions of the writers. I do not trust speed-reading, especially for real learning and researching.

Chris: What's Dr. Medeiros currently reading?

Dr. Medeiros: I do not read just one book at a time. I try to read few pages of different books every day. But everyday I read something related to a biography. Among other books (and articles) I am reading Cotton Mather's Magnalia Christi Americana (The Great Works of Christ in America) and David F. Well's Above All Earthy Pow'rs: Christ in a Postmodern world.

Chris: What does Dr. Medeiros do to keep the heart aflame?

Dr. Medeiros: Meditation, prayer, and talking with people about Jesus.

Chris: It must be an honor to be on the faculty at RTS Jackson. Was that a goal of yours or did it just kind of happen?

Dr. Medeiros: The greatest honor is to be called a child of God (1 John 3) and a servant of God through whom others may come to believe (1 Corinthians 3:5). But, of course, it is a great privilege and responsibility to be part of a theological school such RTS with such commitment to the Person of God, the Word of God, the Work of God, the people of God, and to world evangelization.

I was not seeking any professorial position in USA. I was not even thinking about that possibility when I was invited in 1992 (through Dr. Paul B. Long, Sr. chairman of the Missions Department at that time). The Lord opened the doors. I consulted the leadership of my denomination and my Presbytery in Brazil and they supported me. And, of course, I am very glad to be part of this team. What a strategic place to make a difference throughout the world! I praise the LORD for the history and the worldwide influence of this institution.
Chris: Some people say that we need to go back to a mentor-apprentice structure for raising up pastors. What do you say? Is the current seminary structure hitting the mark for pastoral training?

Dr. Medeiros: All of us-professors and students-could do more towards this "mentor-apprentice" model. This model requires more than just the efforts of any faculty member. It involves the students' initiative as well. Besides, it has to do with the participation of local churches. Seminaries do not stand by themselves nor serve themselves; we serve the church.

Chris: One of the biblical qualifications for a minister is that they should be able to run their own household well. Is this a quality being ignored in most seminary training?

Dr. Medeiros: We should not attribute to a seminary education that which is the responsibility and initiative of each one of us before the Lord. In an ideal situation such qualifications should be required prior to seminary education. I taught in a denominational seminary in Brazil. Only candidates examined and approved by the local session and the presbyteries were admitted. The local session and the presbyteries had the responsibility to assess such qualifications. It does not mean, however, that such qualifications are not to be seriously considered, taught, and modeled by the faculty and the students.

Chris: What can you say to those who desire to be seminary professors? Yes, we exist!

Dr. Medeiros: Finish your M.Div degree and be sure to spend significant time in ministering somewhere in God's world. DO NOT JUST GO FROM ONE ACADEMIC DEGREE TO ANOTHER. Spend significant time ministering in the context of the church and of the lost. Look at Jesus and His apostles. They spent time with prayer and in the Word, but never without being actively involved with people: both believers and unbelievers. They were teaching, preaching, praying, talking, visiting people, day and night, publicly and house to house.
Listen to Paul: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house" (Acts 20:18-20).

Chris: What's the theological subject that gets you fired up?

Dr. Medeiros: "Evangelism"-across the street and around the world. The kind of evangelism that includes the whole process of making disciples-from new birth till death. Paul said: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). Jesus prayed: "I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word" (John 17:4-6).

Chris: Your work on missions is the best efforts in the field we've seen. Is there anything in the publishing pipe that we should be aware of? Or what would you like to write next?

Dr. Medeiros: I have a book on Evangelism and pastoral ministry to be released in Portuguese by the Presbyterian Publishing House of the Presbyterian Church of Brazil. I have several other material in my computer already. I do not know when or if they will be published one day. As Rabbi Duncan once said: "I am a talker. Not a writer." It is not an excuse. The time is coming. Do not misunderstand my point: I write everyday. But I love to preach and I pray constantly for the Lord to pour a great love and compassion for those to whom I preach. When Jesus saw the multitudes He had compassion on them (Matthew 9:35ff).

Chris: Instead of giving Dr. Medeiros a "Dinnger" I asked him to share with all of us his viewes/definitions of missions, for I think the church is in dire need to hear what Dr. Medeiros is saying on these things.

For those that haven't gotten a taste of your passion for missions would you briefly explain what you mean when you speak of the terms: missions, missionary, and mission field?

Dr. Medeiros:

Mission refers to the will and the work of God the Father, reconciling the lost with Himself through the redemptive work of His Son Jesus Christ by the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit and all for His glory and our joy. The words "will" and "work" are constantly used by Christ to describe it (check the gospel of John). And the biblical words "will" and "work" are better and more meaningful than the word "mission."

Missionary is simply a servant (a worker, a witness) through whom others may come to believe (1 Corinthians 3:5). The words servants, workers (laborers), witnesses are biblical words. And they are better and more meaningful terms than the word "missionary."

The "mission field," according to the Scriptures is the whole world-across the street and around the world. Wherever you have lost people you have a "mission" field. "In you [Abraham's seed] all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Genesis 12:3 cf. Genesis 3:15 and John 3:16). Jesus also taught that "the field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one" (Matthew 13:38). The field includes "all the nations [which includes our own]" (Matthew 28:20). And not only Jerusalem but also Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth (Acts 1:8). "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" (Revelation 5:9). See also Revelation 7:9-10.

Chris: So to refer to the "mission field" as being somewhere "over there," i.e. getting on a plane and leaving my general surroundings isn't any more of a "mission field" than where I came from because where you have an unconverted person you have a "mission field." I sure think if we began to grasp the biblical definitions of these words we would be doing a lot more in the places we currently live.

Chris: Can you recommend any books on "missions"?

Dr. Medeiros:
John Piper's Let the Nations Be Glad,
Walter Kaiser's Mission in the Old Testament: Israel as a light to the nations,
Peter T. O'Brien's Gospel and mission in the writings of Paul: An exegetical and theological analysis,
Robert E. Speer, Christianity and the Nations,
Christopher Wright, The Mission of God: Unlocking the Bible's Grand Narrative,
the autobiography of John Paton,
the biographies of Robert McCheyne, George Whitefield, William Carey, etc.

Chris: You're a big fan of biographies and have drunk deeply from them. Can you recommend to our readers some of the ones that really got you stirred up?

Dr. Medeiros:

Missionary Patriarch: The True Story of John G. Paton, Leen J. Van Valen, Leen's Constrained by His love: A new biography on Robert Murray McCheyne, John H. Armstrong, Five great evangelists; George Whitefield, George Whitefield's Journals; George Müller, Autobiography; T. Pierson, George Müller of Bristol; S. Pearce Carey, William Carey; Jonathan Edwards, The Life and Diary of David Brainers; etc.

There are several good websites from where you can download some excellent biographies (www.desiringgod.org).

Chris: Can you speak for a moment to those desiring to be "missionaries"? What can you say to them that would help them? (I anticipate you saying, "For them to realize they are already a missionary if they are in Christ.")

Dr. Medeiros: You are right. You do not desire to be what you already are. "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me" (Acts 1:8). If you believe the Lord is calling you to be a servant through whom other peoples in other parts of the world will come to believe, be sure you have been a witness here. Everyone mentioned in the Scriptures who were used by the Lord of the harvest in other parts of the world were those actively involved with and committed to the work of the Lord in their own neighborhood. The question is not primarily what you will be doing over there, but what are you doing over here? Are you making Christ known here and now? Do you take advantage of every situation and circumstances to make Christ known? To be "a missionary" is not a matter of geography but "theo-graphy." I used to illustrate it this way: a soldier does not become a soldier because he was deployed somewhere. He was deployed somewhere because he was already a soldier where he was.

Faithfulness is not assessed by geographical location per se. The problem of Jonah was not location (he had no problem to move from northern Israel to Tarshish) per se but lack of compassion (Jonah 4:10-11). "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing" (Matthew 24:45-46). Consider also Luke 19:17; Colossians 1:7; 4:7; Hebrews 3:5; etc.

Chris: Last thoughts?

Dr. Medeiros: I hope these are not my "last thoughts." The ultimate purpose (not in the sense of being purpose-driven) or chief end of any Christian ministry is to glorify the Father, by the faithful teaching, preaching, witnessing, sharing, speaking, and living of God's Word by Which God's people (the church) will be edified, and the unconverted will be saved. And all for the Glory of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and our joy. Study and consider also the priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17. Meditate on Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 9:19-27; 10:35-11:1. These texts are all based on the Old Testament teaching-Isaiah 43:7; Psalm 73:24-28; etc.
Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, keep the following questions in mind: What does it have to do with the glorious Person of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? What does it have to do with the glorious Word of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? What does it have to do with the glorious Work of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? What does it have to do with the People of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? What does it have to do with the Unconverted People whom God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit will save?

Chris: Well this has been another edition of Twoth. We hope you enjoyed the offerings Dr. Medeiros brings to the table. Until next time: in all that you do, do it to the glory of God.
Remember you can now get Twoth interview via RSS Feed here!

----- Interview by: Chris Rehers of twoth.com ----

*All introductory biographical information has been taken from the Dr. Medieros faculty page
** The views expressed in our interviews are not necessarily the beliefs held by those of us at Twoth.com but then again you're not here because you care what the two guys at Twoth believe anyway, now are ya?!?!
*** All material remains the right of Twoth.com and the Interviewee. Please contact Twoth.com for permission before copying to any media format.

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Dr. Kim Riddlebarger Feb. 12, 2007

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Welcome to Twoth.com we are speaking with Dr. Kim Riddlebarger, currently the senior pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California, and visiting professor of systematic theology at Westminster Seminary California. He is also a co-host of the White Horse Inn radio program, which is broadcast weekly on more than fifty radio stations.

Dr. Riddlebarger has served as a visiting lecturer in the graduate program in Reformation studies at Concordia University in Irvine, CA and was the chairman of the Growing Reformed Churches Conference, cosponsored by First Chino URC and Westminster Seminary California, where he served as a member of the board of trustees. Dr. Riddlebarger also served as executive vice president of Christians United for Reformation (CURE), the forerunner of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (ACE).

Dr. Riddlebarger is an ordained minister in the United Reformed Churches (URCNA), is a regular contributor to publications such as Modern Reformation and Table Talk and has written chapters for the books Power Religion (Moody), Roman Catholicism: Evangelicals Analyze What Unites and What Divides Us (Moody), and Christ the Lord (Baker). Kim is the author of two books; A Case For Amillennialism, (Baker Books, 2003), The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist (Baker Books, May 2006).


Dr. Riddlebarger has earned a number of academic degrees including:


California State University Fullerton (B.A.)

Simon Greenleaf University (M.A.)

Westminster Seminary California (M.A.R.)

Fuller Theological Seminary (Ph.D.)

Welcome to the Twoth Dr. Riddlebarger. It is an honor to have you and we appreciate your willingness to answer a number of our questions in the midst of your busy life. You wear a number of hats including: Husband, father, pastor, theologian, professor, author, talk show host, etc. The list could go on and on so once again, thank you. Let's get to it:


Chris: Born and raised?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I was born and raised in Orange County, California. I am a fourth-generation Californian. As far as the Reformed guys I know, only Bob Godfrey (president of Westminster Seminary California), has deeper California roots than I do, but his are in the Bay Area.

Chris: Very nice. I'm a third-generation Southern Californian. Raised mostly in Westminster, CA. Possibly fourth gen but that would require some research.

Chris: Currently living?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I live in Buena Park, not far from Knott’s Berry Farm, if you’ve heard of it. I live in our old family home, which my dad built back in 1950. I am raising my own family there. It’s a lovely Cape-Cod style home in a secluded
place (a rarity for my neck of the woods).

Chris: Favorite book(s)?

Dr. Riddlebarger: That’s tough. It’s easy to say “the Bible,” but that’s a given. I love the Heidelberg Catechism, the Book of Common Prayer, and Calvin’s Institutes.

Chris: Quote that stirs your heart most?

Dr. Riddlebarger: “The bastards are getting away!” That’s from Rear Admiral Clifton Sprague during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, when a huge Japanese fleet turned away a small group of American destroyers and escort carriers, at the very moment the Japanese should have crushed the Americans. It shows a sense of courage and humor that I greatly admire and try to emulate.

Chris: Dead theologian influences?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Warfield, Berkhof, Turretin, Bavinck.

Chris: Living theologian/pastoral influences?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I’ve had the privilege of studying under some great men: Rod Rosenbladt, John Warwick Montgomery, Bob Godfrey, and Richard Muller, to name a few. Mike Horton’s also been a huge influence on me.

Chris: What does a typical day or week look like for Dr. Riddlebarger?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I have a Germanic temperament, so I am up at the same time every day. I get my coffee, read my email, hit the total-gym and the treadmill, and then get to work in my study. I teach two nights a week at church, and then conduct two different services on Sunday, and then have pastoral duties (meetings, visitations, marrying and burying). So, I stay plenty busy. But I do take Saturdays off, and people know that if they call me or email me that day, they won’t catch me anywhere near my study.

Chris: Do you read a lot? Are you a mark your books up kind of guy? We want to know about you as a reader. Can you speak to this?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Yes, I read a lot, schedule permitting, mostly in the late afternoons and evenings. I read history (WW II, Civil War, current events) for pleasure and to relax. I read scholarly stuff very carefully and slowly. Richard Muller taught me the value of xeroxing select pages of important stuff, and then marking up the copies. Keeps the originals clean, makes stuff portable, and is much easier to make notes.


Chris: What’s Dr. Riddlebarger currently reading?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Darryl Hart’s Secular Faith, a draft of Horton’s next book in his “covenant” series (prolegomena), Bauckham’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, and Sea of Thunder by Evan Thomas.

Chris: /Chris tips Dr. Riddlebarger a handsome sum of money to get his hands on Dr. Horton's prolegomena manuscript. /smile

Chris: What volume in your personal library are you most proud of?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I have a Latin copy of Turretin’s Institutes which (according to the notes inside the cover) was used as a textbook by someone in A. A. Hodge’s class at Princeton. I also have a copy of Warfield’s rare book on textual criticism
given me by a church member.

Chris: Speaking of books, you yourself are an accomplished author having frequent contributions to magazines such as Modern Reformation and Table Talk, your personal blog entitled “the Riddleblog” and you are the author of two books; A
Case For Amillennialism and The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist. What projects are you working on now? If you had the time what would you like to write/research next?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I was working on another popular book on eschatology, but the project is rapidly morphing into a more ambitious effort–a Reformed/amillennial equivalent of J. D. Pentecost’s Things to Come. I’m also working on an exposition of Romans and a commentary on the Belgic Confession.

Chris: What does Dr. Riddlebarger do to keep the heart aflame?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Sermon preparation does it for me.

Chris: For those of us desiring to be preachers, could you walk us through your sermon preparations and do you have a certain structure you follow?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Yes, I follow a pretty rigid pattern. 95% of the time I preach through a book of the Bible. So, I repeatedly read the whole book several times (or listen to it on CD). I read number of commentaries (mostly scholarly and
critical). Once I select a particular pericope (my text for that particular Lord’s day), I will read it in the original language, and then take notes on odd/important stuff. I’ll then get to work on the sermon. I am a manuscript preacher, so over the course of the week, I’ll write out the whole thing (edit and re-edit) and then memorize it.

Chris: What advice can you give to aspiring ministers?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Find a good Reformed/Presbyterian Church. This is invaluable. Then go to a good Reformed/Presbyterian seminary. Devote yourself to your studies and don’t worry about “ministry” until you’ve gotten sufficient training and direction from your church.

Chris: You’re a minister in the United Reformed Church (URCNA) would you walk us through what sets the Reformed church apart from the Presbyterian Church? What are the distinctions between, for example, the URC and OPC? Is it purely a confessional and land mass issue; island versus continent?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Not having been in the OPC, that’s hard to say. Of course, there are some differences in ethos and some minor differences in polity, but there’s so much more in common, I’d rather not emphasize the differences. I will say, I’m in the URC because I am a Heidelberger. Our catechism is a rare jewel.


Chris: If you can say anything to students currently in seminary whom maybe discouraged in their labors what would it be? Do you have anything to perhaps add from your own academic efforts that would encourage us to continue the fight?

Dr. Riddlebarger: I was never an “A” student. But I am a hard worker so I got good enough grades. If you are called to the ministry, put your shoulder to it, and trust God to see you through it. Read Warfield’s little tract on the Religious
Life of Theological Students. Its worth its weight in fine gold.

Chris: You’ve been the co-host of the White Horse Inn radio program I believe since the beginning and it was Rev. Ken Jones that came later. How has being apart of this show changed you as a person?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Yes, I am an original. Jones came later. I know where all of Horton’s and Rosenbladt’s skeletons are buried. Of course, I have none (smile). The White Horse Inn has been a joy and a delight. For sixteen years I have observed good-ole Reformation theology impact people’s lives in the most dramatic of ways. That explains why my eyes roll when people tell me this stuff doesn’t matter, or that some new fad will provide the thing we are all supposedly
missing.

Chris: What was the most bizarre moment or statement made on the show?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Where to begin . . . All I can say is that it was uttered by Rod Rosenbladt, probably should not be repeated, but was totally called for at the time. It had to do with one of those sappy commercials the radio station ran during our program. The commercial was for the PMS clinic. Enough said.

Chris: As you may or may not know when we interview someone we usually will ask a "Dinger" question; a question that is a little uncomfortable to ask, we call it "being twothed!"

Dr. Riddlebarger here is your Dinger: You’ve written two books dealing with eschatology: A Case For Amillennialism and The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist. Both of these books were written right in Dr. Kenneth Gentry’s backyard so to speak. Was there any intimidation there? Do you think there will be a public debate soon, friendly of course? Has Dr. Gentry contact you? *Yeah I know its not much of a Dinger but I can’t stick a minister of the URC too hard for I’m still a member in good standing of a URC. /smiles

Dr. Riddlebarger: I have never met Ken Gentry nor spoken with him. Ken Gentry was in my backyard (to set the record straight), but we never crossed paths.

Chris: Congratulation Dr. Riddlebarger you've been Twothed! Ok any last thoughts?

Dr. Riddlebarger: Enjoyed it!


--------------------------------------- Interview by: Chris Rehers of twoth.com -----------------------------------------------------

*All introductory biographical information has been taken from Dr. Kim Riddlebarger's biographical page from his blog site.
To read more about Dr. Kim Riddlebarger and his work please visit The Riddleblog.


** The views expressed in our interviews are not necessarily the beliefs held by those of us at Twoth.com but then again you're not here because you care what the two guys at Twoth believe anyway, now are ya?!?!

*** The presence of a " / " will indicate that an act or emotion is being conveyed in the interview to capture the feel that doesn't translate to paper/html. Also it's humorously incorporating the current Internet language which is another culture and language unto itself. "Lol" = Lot of laughs. /smile = I'm smiling. "IMHO" = In my honest opinion. Etc.

**** All material remains the right of Twoth.com and the Interviewee. Please contact Twoth.com for permission before copying to any media format.

Rev. Jason Stellman Feb. 5, 2007

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Welcome to Twoth.com we are speaking with Rev. Jason Stellman Pastor of Exile Presbyterian Chruch, PCA in Woodinville, WA.

The Rev. Jason Stellman is a native of Orange County, California, and became a believer through the ministry of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in 1989. While under the care of Calvary Chapel he served as a missionary and church planter in Uganda (1991-1992) and in Hungary (1994-2000). Since coming to understand and embrace Reformed theology, Pastor Stellman received his Master of Divinity degree from Westminster Seminary California, where he studied under such scholars as Dr. Michael Horton, Dr. W. Robert Godfrey, and Dr. D.G. Hart. He lives in Woodinville, WA, with his wife Alida and their daughter Ainsley.

Welcome to the Twoth Rev. Stellman, long time no see. It is great to have you on the "show" and we appreciate your willingness to answer a number of our questions. Let's get to it:


Chris: Born and raised:

Rev. Stellman: Orange County, CA (also known as "The OC" by people not from there).

Chris: Now residing:

Rev. Stellman: Woodinville, WA

Chris: Favorite book(s):

Rev. Stellman: As far as fiction goes, I love The Lord of the Rings trilogy, as well as The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Sallinger and A Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole. Theological favorites include Herman Ridderbos's The Coming of the Kingdom and Paul, Meredith Kline's Kingdom Prologue, D.G. Hart's The Lost Soul of American Protestantism, and Michael Horton's A Better Way: Rediscovering the Drama of Christ-Centered Worship.

Chris: Quote that stirs your heart most:

Rev. Stellman: "This dirge will not last long, but will soon drown in a song not sung in vain." Rich Mullins

Chris: Dead theologian influences:

Rev. Stellman: John Calvin, Zacharius Ursinus, Geerhardus Vos.

Chris: Living theologian/pastoral influences:

Rev. Stellman: Meredith Kline, Sinclair Fergusson, Michael Horton.

Chris: Last time we talked children were not part of the picture, how has having your daughter Ainsley changed things for Rev. Stellman?

Rev. Stellman: Well, I've never been the emotional type, but having a daughter has made me more caring, I hope. Having a family has made me a bit more pastoral and sensitive (although I'm still only half as sensitive as a normal person).

Chris: What's funny about you being, "half as sensitive as a normal person" is I find that quality is what actually attracts many to you. I think it causes you to speak with a stone-cold truthful reality that captivates anyone in your presence. It's hard to describe on paper/html. If you've spent any amount of time with Rev. Stellman you'll know exactly what's being described. Not to get into any form of "Simony" but could I get some of that mojo?

Chris: Well then, what does a typical day or week look like for Rev. Stellman?

Rev. Stellman: I spend the first part of the week exegeting the texts that I'm preaching the coming Lord's Day, and by Thursday I hopefully have a couple rough skeletal outlines, which I add some flesh to on Fridays. Mixed in there are random meetings with church members and/or interested visitors, trips to Starbucks, and a little TV to unwind at the end of the day.

Chris: You used to have a rather awkward schedule one akin to my own. Are you still a "night owl'? If so why do you think you're wired as such or why is that the best time for you?

Rev. Stellman: Funny that you remember that. Yes, I am very much a night owl, and must force myself to go to bed by 2am.

Chris: Of course I remember. It can be very discouraging at times when the rest of your peers maintain a "normal" schedule and you a not so "normal" one. I remember being encouraged that I wasn't the only one that works best late into the night. I felt like I got a certificate of approval when I found out about your nocturnal habits. /smile

Chris: Do you read a lot? Are you a mark in your book kind of guy? We want to know about you as a reader. Can you speak to this?

Rev. Stellman: Yes, I read quite a bit, and I usually mark in my books if they're theological in nature, but not so much in others (especially when they're borrowed from the local library).

Chris: *laughs

Rev. Stellman: I find that my reading tastes follow certain waves or patterns that may last a few weeks or several months. For example, I was on a "social criticism" kick for quite a while last year. So I read everything from the lighthearted stuff by David Brooks (Bobos in Paradise, On Paradise Drive) to some weightier works by Juliet Schor, Paul Stiles, Neil Postman, and Joel Bakan. But after reading so many books that point out how messed up our culture is, one can understandably become rather irritable. So I need to change things up occasionally and move on to some fiction or pastoral theology. I like reading sermons in the morning to start the day.

Chris: What's Rev. Stellman currently reading?

Rev. Stellman: I'm working through Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States as well as his A Power Governments Cannot Suppress. I also have recently finished Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky. On a lighter note, I am also finishing up Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs (the book, not that actual things) by Chuck Klosterman IV, who is another social critic.

Chris: What does Rev. Stellman do to keep the heart aflame?

Rev. Stellman: Beyond the obvious (studying the Bible) I try to read pastoral theology, and especially sermons (often Spurgeon, currently Vos).

Chris: Watching your transformation from a Calvary Chapel pastor to successfully tackling the academic rigors at seminary at Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA to being a minister in the PCA, its all quite encouraging if you come from a similar background. Your story gives hope. Would you briefly walk our readers through your experience?

Rev. Stellman: It's a long story (the Calvary Chapel part of which can be read HERE. As for the rest, I knew that once my wife and I returned from the mission field that I wanted to continue to pastor, but as a newly Reformed guy I didn't want to simply replicate Calvary Chapel's ecclesiology with TULIP tacked on at the end (which I would have done if I had just "started a church" with no formal training). So I enrolled at Westminster Seminary California, and it was three of the best years of my life which I wouldn't trade for anything. It was really hard though….

Chris: Do you have plans to pursue further academic studies? If so what are they? Can we look forward to seeing a Dr. Jason Stellman?

Rev. Stellman: I have thought about how much I would love to continue my education, but with a brand new church plant, a two year-old, and another child due in March, I think I may wait just a tad longer. A year maybe?

Chris: Your number of contributions to your blog De Regnis Duobus: Cult, Culture, and the Christian's Dual Citizenship, is very impressive. Is there a writing career in the future? What project would you like to work on next?

Rev. Stellman: Writing papers was always my favorite part of seminary, and I still love to write. I am working with the folks at Presbyterian and Reformed Publications on a book idea that I hope will eventually see the light of day.

Chris: What do you think is the theological controversy of our day is and is the church properly addressing the issues?

Rev. Stellman: I am tempted to say that the Federal Vision issue is potentially one of the church's biggest dangers, but much more dire (mainly because of its widespread influence) is the American, evangelical idea that the church is supposed to wield a kind of power not unlike that of the world. Christianity works best as an "underdog religion," but as Americans we're not very good at being underdogs. So we craft a vision for the church that is very triumphalistic and focused on taking society back for Christ and getting "our people" into office, all of which just seems like an attempt to avoid the kind of suffering that Jesus and the apostles endured and told us to expect. For my own part, this widespread insistence on the part of many evangelicals to fight for their rights is a misguided eschatology at best, and a denial of the cross at worst.

Chris: As you may or may not know when we interview someone we usually will ask a "Dinger" question; a question that is a little uncomfortable to ask, we call it "being twothed!" Rev. Stellman here is your Dinger:

It doesn't take a person long to see there is an "apparent" agenda under-girding all of your work of late. A lot of your writings and sermons have to do with areas dealing with Biblical Theology and the related themes of "being in exile." The church you're a minister in is even called "Exile" Presbyterian Church. Is this a conscience effort? The current controversy regarding "Federal Vision" must be creating sparks your way. Could you speak to any of this?

Rev. Stellman: Hang on a sec, are you saying that all this "exile" stuff is planned? How DARE you, sir!

Just kidding, of course. One thing that I have come to understand over the last seven years or so is just how much one's eschatology affects all other areas of one's theology. The concept of exile generally, and the name Exile Presbyterian Church specifically, are both very amillennial if you think about it. Amillennialism is not just about when the so-called "thousand-year reign" occurs in relation to the second coming, but, more broadly, it is sort of shorthand for "suffering in this age, glory in the next." So the church vision and identity that I am trying to craft focuses significantly on the idea that believers in this present age are but pilgrims and sojourners (to use another two of the NT's terms) whose hope is not the transformation of Adamic culture by means of political or social efforts, but "a new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

On the Federal Vision controversy, yes, it has reached this neck of the woods (in fact, one of its main proponents is a member of our presbytery). Without going into too much detail, I would say that I certainly sympathize with the FV men concerning the dangers they have identified within American Christianity, and I am all for a more redemptive historical reading of Scripture and a high view of baptism. But when I read what they have been saying about the relationship of works to justification, I can't help but wonder if their solution isn't worse than the problem they were originally trying to solve.

Chris: Congratulations Rev. Stellman you've been Twothed! Your Twoth relic is in the mail!

Chris: Any last thoughts?

Rev. Stellman: No, but thanks for "giving me the last word." Bill O'Reilly would be proud….

Chris: Thank you for taking the time to dialog with me for this interview. I was blessed to be able to do ministry with you in Europe and equally honored to interview you several years later. May God continue to grant you strength as you seek to glorify him.


--------------------------------------- Interview by: Chris Rehers of twoth.com -------------------------------------

*All introductory biographical information has been taken from Rev. Stellman's church site.:
To read more about Rev. Stellman and his work please visit Clicky


** The views expressed in our interviews are not necessarily the beliefs held by those of us at Twoth.com but then again you're not here because you care what the two guys at Twoth believe anyway, now are ya?!?!

*** The presence of a " / " will indicate that an act or emotion is being conveyed in the interview to capture the feel that doesn't translate to paper/html. Also it's humorously incorporating the current Internet language which is another culture and language unto itself. "Lol" = Lot of laughs. /smile = I'm smiling. "IMHO" = In my honest opinion. Etc.

**** All material remains the right of Twoth.com and the Interviewee. Please contact Twoth.com for permission before copying to any media format.

Dr. John Frame Jan. 29, 2007

Visit twoth.com for source and all things twoth --> HERE!





Welcome to Twoth.com we are speaking with Dr. John Frame Professor of Systematic Theology and Philosophy at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, FL. Dr. John Frame serves as J.D. Trimble Chair of Systematic Theology and Philosophy. He has obtain a number of degrees including:

Princeton University, A.B.
Westminster Theological Seminary, B.D.
Yale University, M.A., M.Phil.
Belhaven College, D.D.

An outstanding theologian, John Frame distinguished himself during 31 years on the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary, and was a founding faculty member of WTS California. He is best known for his prolific writings including ten volumes, a contributor to many books and reference volumes, as well as scholarly articles and magazines. Rev. Frame is a talented musician and discerning media critic who is deeply committed to the work of ministry and training pastors.

Dr. Frame also has a website with Dr. Vern Poythress that you can visit http://www.frame-poythress.org. There you will find a wealth of material he's published; including a personal Blog.

Welcome to the Twoth Dr. Frame. It is an honor to have you in the twoth hot seat and we appreciate your willingness to answer a number of our questions. You're a favorite among many people I associate with and can't wait to get into this one! Let's get to it:


Chris: Born and raised?

Dr. Frame: Pittsburgh, PA

Chris: Currently living?

Dr. Frame: Oviedo, FL (north of Orlando)

Chris: Favorite book(s)?

Dr. Frame: The Bible, John Murray's Lectures in Systematic Theology

Chris: Quote that stirs your heart most?

Dr. Frame: Changes from time to time. Today, 1 Cor. 15:58, "Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

Chris: Dead theologian influences?

Dr. Frame: Anselm, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Warfield, Van Til, Murray,and Clowney.

Chris: Living theologian/pastoral influences?

Dr. Frame: John Piper, James Packer, Dick Kaufmann (pastor of Harbor Presbyterian in San Diego), Tim Keller (Pastor of Redeemer PCA, NY), Vern Poythress, Richard Pratt.

Chris: What does a typical day or week look like for Dr. Frame?

Dr. Frame: Teaching classes, writing, answering emails, playing the organ, being with the family.

Chris: What does Dr. Frame do to keep the heart aflame?

Dr. Frame: Mainly worship, and preparation for worship.

Chris: Do you read a lot?

Dr. Frame: Not much for pleasure or edification, compared to other theologians.

Chris: Is it important to be well read or know a few good books well?

Dr. Frame: I'd say the latter, at least for me. People with other gifts may legitimately seek more breadth.


Chris: Do you mark in your books? Or keep'em pure?

Dr. Frame: Sometimes. If I am preparing a review or some such thing, I take notes on paper outside the book.

Chris: Do you read daily?

Dr. Frame: Yes. Probably more news and cultural stuff than theology.

Chris: What's Dr. Frame currently reading?

Dr. Frame: Dennis Johnson, Him We Proclaim, for an endorsement.

Chris: Can you reflect upon any moments you had being a student under Professor VanTil? Any crumbs you may offer to our readers? I'm sure any reflection will be worth something to our readers, especially me!

Dr. Frame: I asked him once a question I thought to be very simple-thought he would answer it in fifteen seconds. He replied that "to answer that question, we must go back to Adam and Eve." Well, we went back to Eden, went through the Bible at some length, then the history of philosophy from Thales to the present. I didn't hear an answer to my question, but I suppose it didn't matter. I've long forgotten what that question was.

Chris: You have had a steady publishing career with some very impressive works. What's currently in the publishing pipe? Or what projects are you currently working on?

Dr. Frame: Doctrine of the Christian Life is complete, in the hands of the publishers. I expect it to be released in a year or two. I'm currently trying to get time to write Doctrine of the Word of God.

Chris: If you had another 100 years on earth what project would you like to tackle?

Dr. Frame: I'd like to study Christology and soteriology-and jazz.

Chris: What advice can you offer to people desiring to fill the shoes of today's theologians? Let's say I want to be the next Dr. John Frame…

Dr. Frame: The work of theology is not just expositing past theologians, but rather seeking to solve theological problems. To do that, you must learn to think, not just to regurgitate facts. Too many Reformed theologians today think they've done their job when they have gathered some quotes from historic and/or contemporary figures and approved some and deplored others. What needs to be done is to give reasons for the positions we take. And ultimately, these reasons must come from the Bible. We also need to give thought, not only to the cogency of our reasoning, but also to the spiritual effect our words will have on others. Are they kind, gentle, loving, challenging, etc.?

Chris: Biblical Theology & Systematic Theology can these two disciplines walk hand in hand?

Dr. Frame: They must. I think they are really two perspectives on the same content, not different contents.

Chris: You've contributed to various works on worship and I wanted to ask you a question regarding worship in our reformed circles. I often ask, "Why don't we sing contemporary worship songs?" The usual response is, "Well they are lacking theological depth." If that's the case isn't that a rebuke to most of the "reformed" community? If we pride ourselves in having excellent theology yet we don't produce a new song what is that saying? So far the best responses I've heard are that we are no longer sending our young men and women off to be educated in music and maybe we should just sing the "inspired text" instead and the problem would go away. What do you say?

Dr. Frame: I say we should try our best to set the Reformed faith to music that engages the hearts of people today. Eventually the best will rise to the top.

Chris: As you may or may not know when we interview someone we usually will ask a "Dinger" question; a question that is a little uncomfortable to ask, we call it "being twothed!" Dr. Frame here is your Dinger: A long time ago, we have heard it said that you said that you can "dance" a sermon. Is this true? If so do explain.

Dr. Frame: I think what I said was that you can sing a sermon-since the Bible does not distinguish between what may be said and what may be sung in worship. As for dance, I have no biblical reason to prohibit it; Ps. 150 and other texts actually command dance in worship. Presumably such dance should be edifying. Whether we use the word "sermon" to describe edifying dance seems mainly a matter of terminology.

Chris: Congratulation Dr. Frame you've been "Twothed!"

Chris: Last thoughts?

Dr. Frame: Thanks for your interest. May God bless the ministry of twoth.




--------------------------------------- Interview by: Chris Rehers of twoth.com ---------------

*All introductory biographical information has been taken from Dr. Frame's faculty page:
To read more about Dr. Frame and his work please visit Clicky


** The views expressed in our interviews are not necessarily the beliefs held by those of us at Twoth.com but then again you're not here because you care what the two guys at Twoth believe anyway, now are ya?!?!

*** All material remains the right of Twoth.com and the Interviewee. Please contact Twoth.com for permission before copying to any media format.

Dr. Scott Clark Jan. 22, 2007

Visit twoth.com for source and all things twoth --> HERE!





Welcome to Twoth.com we are speaking with Dr. Scott Clark Associate Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology at Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA. Dr. Clark has obtained a number of degrees including:

B.A., University of Nebraska;

M.Div., Westminster Seminary California;

D.Phil., Oxford University.


Dr. Clark has taught at Westminster Seminary California since 1997, during which time he also served as Academic Dean (1997-2000). He has taught at Wheaton College, Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, and Concordia University, Irvine. He has been a minister in the Reformed Church in the United States and is presently a minister in the United Reformed Churches. He has served congregations in Missouri and California. He is Associate Pastor of the Oceanside United Reformed Church, where he preaches and teaches regularly.

Welcome to the Twoth Dr. Clark. It is an honor to have you and we appreciate your willingness to answer a number of our questions. Let's get to it:


Chris: Born and raised?

Dr. Clark: Born in Kansas and raised mainly in Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska.

Chris: Currently living?

Dr. Clark: Escondido, CA

Chris: Favorite book(s):

Dr. Clark: Johannes Wollebius' Compendium of Christian Theology, Geerhardus Vos' Biblical Theology, Francis Turretin's Institutes of Elenctic Theology, Dorothy Sayers' Creed or Chaos?, and Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will.

Chris: Favorite novel(s):

Dr. Clark: I should probably list some important socially relevant novels, but here are two that come to mind:

John Irving, A Prayer for Owen Meany
P. G. Wodehouse, Leave It to Psmith

Chris: Favorite food or drink:

Dr. Clark: A genuine Philly cheese steak (fortunately there is a place about 10 miles from where I can get one)

Chris: Favorite place to frequent:

Dr. Clark: Is there another place to be beside my home and my office? Please tell me more!

Chris: Favorite web links:

Dr. Clark:
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com
http://reformation21.com/Reformation_21_Blog
http://www.huskerpedia.com

Chris: Quote that stirs your heart

Dr. Clark: Fear of scholasticism is the mark of a false prophet-- Karl Barth.


Chris: Were you always reformed? Tell us a little about your road to reformation.


Dr. Clark: No, I was not always Reformed, indeed, I was not always a Christian. I came to faith in 1976.


Chris: What does a typical day or week look like for Dr. Scott Clark?

Dr. Clark: My life is achingly dull. If I tried to describe it all your readers would fall into narcolepsy. Let's just say that I have a very short commute (for which I'm thankful!) and I spend far too much time at the office. I live 18 miles from the ocean but I see it only about 5 minutes a week while I'm going in and out of church on Sundays (our congregation meets in a chapel on the beach in Carlsbad, CA).

Chris: How big is your personal library?

Dr. Clark: About 3,000 books.

Chris: What volume are you most proud of owning?

Dr. Clark: Three, I guess, a signed copy of Machen's Christianity and Liberalism, a signed copy of Lewis' Mere Christianity, and an early copy of Turretin's disputations.

Chris: Do you read a lot? Are you a fast or slow reader? We want to know about you as a reader.

Dr. Clark: It depends upon what I'm reading and why. I can read novels quickly. I read new technical material much more slowly with a pen in hand and (if it's my copy) notes in the margin. I like to think that, over the years, I've learned to pay attention to what a good author is saying.

Chris: What's Dr. Scott Clark currently reading?

Dr. Clark: Dorothy Sayers, Letters to a Diminished Church
George Marsden, Jonathan Edwards
Joseph Ellis, His Excellency George Washington
Ralph McInerny, Rogerson at Bay
Caspar Olevianus, Notae in epistolam pauli ad romanos

Chris: What does Dr. Scott Clark do to keep the heart aflame?

Dr. Clark: This may not be the answer you were expecting, but I attend to the means of grace. I find that preparation for preaching and preaching is also very edifying.

Chris: I actually think "attending to the means of grace" is right on the money and is my response to that question. Survey says, "Number one answer!"

Chris: What theological subjects would you say your most at home with?

Dr. Clark: The history of doctrine

Chris: It must be an honor to be on the faculty at Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA. Was that a goal of yours or did it just kind of happen?

Dr. Clark: It is. In the providence of God I happened to be at right place at the right time. I was in full-time pastoral ministry from 1987-93. About 1991, Steve and Kathy Baugh visited us in Kansas City while he attended ETS. I went with him to some sessions and that got me thinking about graduate study. I applied for to some grad programs and one of them was silly enough to let me in. I spent two years in the UK doing graduate study. When we returned home to the states we were broke, homeless, and I was unemployed. Wheaton College called to ask if I could interview for a temporary position. That turned into a two year post. During the second year, WSC called to see if I was interested in serving as Academic Dean and teaching Church History.

Chris: There is a rumor amuck that says, "Westminster Seminary in Escondido is too expensive. The cost of living is just too much." We have heard this being the reason for many people not attending the seminary there but choosing other schools instead. Would you like to speak to this? I know this is a hot button for you.


Dr. Clark: Ministerial students should get the best possible education because they have the most important vocation in the world. I get the impression that too often students make decisions about preparation for ministry without getting all the facts.

There is a lot of unreasoning fear of Southern California in other parts of the country. Escondido is a quiet suburb of San Diego, which, as big cities go, is pretty quiet. Escondido is actually one of the most affordable places to live in Southern California. When folks compare the cost of living in other cities with the COL in Escondido, they often omit important facts. Most of the winter heat is optional here. AC is optional most of the summer. Walking and bicycling are possible most of 12 months of the year. The cost of housing, when we moved here, was no higher than in the west suburbs of Chicago.

Chris: Some people say that we need to go back to a mentor-apprentice structure for raising up pastors. What do you say? Is the current seminary structure hitting the mark for pastoral training?

Dr. Clark: It's not fashionable to say this, but yes, I think that the current seminary structure works reasonably well. None of the alternative proposals really addresses the nature of the ministerial office, as I understand it. None of the alternatives I've seen is really as practical as some folk seem to think. We wouldn't think of training lawyers or physicians only by apprenticeship. Why not? Because we know that they have vocations that are vitally important. We wouldn't dream of trying to train them "on-the-job." Why on earth would we think that full-time ministers are equipped to teach theology, biblical languages, biblical exegesis, history and practica? That hasn't been possible for a century. As a pastor I draw on my academic training every day. We can always do things better. We're not as flexible as we should be. As our students come to us with weaker and weaker academic preparation, we spend more time trying to get them caught up. Our structure still assumes preparation that doesn't much exist anymore. Incoming seminary students probably don't have the grasp of basic Reformed doctrines anymore so we need to address such things in our curriculum.

Chris: One of the biblical qualifications for a minister is that they should be able to run their own household well. Is this a quality lacking in most seminary training?

Dr. Clark: I'm not sure that it's the seminary's job to address every single qualification for ministry. The more the seminary tries to do, the less it is likely to do well. The local congregation has a vital role to play in the preparation of ministers and it is the role of consistories/sessions to make sure that candidates meet the biblical, moral standard for office bearers. To be sure, as pastors we take our pastoral duties seriously and we do counsel students privately, but it's important for the seminary as a school not to impinge on the proper work of the church.

Chris: What can you say to those who desire to be seminary professors? Yes, there are some out there!

Dr. Clark: Aim to serve Christ as a minister of word and sacrament. If you're going to serve as a seminary teacher, then it's really useful to have been "in the trenches." If you have academic gifts and inclinations, then having served as a pastor, get the best possible preparation to fulfill your vocation. There are no shortcuts and there aren't many teaching positions.

Chris: You frequent several blogs/forums from time to time and it's good to see a man with such academic prowess in the web community interacting. Is this something you enjoy doing?

Dr. Clark: Enjoy? Well, there are things not to like. The web is completely democratic so every crank with a computer is now a theologian. I should know, I'm one of them! I'm sure my colleagues would tell you that I spend too much time writing online. I think, however, that as important as print publication is (and it is, the web is ephemeral), people under the age of 50 are increasingly getting their information chiefly from the web. It's becoming the principal way many people relate to the outside world. That might not be a desirable, but the web is an amazingly useful way to teach and reach people with the Reformed faith.

Chris: Ok, as you may or may not know, our Twoth interviews consist of several general, personal, and theological questions then one DINGER question that the "reformed popular culture" wants to know, call it the "difficult question" we call it "Getting Twothed!" Anyway…a few people say that you can come off too "hard" in your responses. What do you say about that? Is there anything you want to say to explain why it is or isn't true?

Dr. Clark: Hard? What? I'm a pussycat.

I am direct and sometimes even blunt. I can be a little impatient and that comes off, especially online, as gruff. Some of the perception you describe is cultural. We live in a time when people are not allowed simply to disagree. Disagreements are now "conversations." Sometimes it seems as if we're living in an Orwellian world. Some folk confuse "niceness" with piety. I suspect that a lot of folk today would tell the Apostle Paul that he was too hard on Peter for doing nothing more than being selective about his dinner companions! There is a place for gentleness and patience. These are real virtues that I seek to cultivate, but there is also a place for direct speech. When it comes to things such as the gospel, I don't see any virtue in being tolerant of error, not when the safety of Christ's little ones is at stake.

Chris: Well congratulations Dr. Clark you've been Twothed!

Chris: You have a number of published works and contributions including articles in Tabletalk, to editing Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry: Essays by the Faculty of Westminster Seminary California. What's next in the publishing pipe?

Dr. Clark: I have an essay critiquing Brian McLaren coming out this summer in a collection published by Crossway. "Whosever Will Be Saved: Emerging Church? Meet Christian Dogma," in Gary Johnson and Ron Gleason eds. Post Conservative Evangelicalism: An Analysis and Critique (Wheaton: Crossway, 2007).

"Olevianus and Paul," in ed. Ward Holder, Paul in the Reformation (Leiden: Brill,
forthcoming).
Iustitia Imputata Christi: Alien or Proper to Luther's Doctrine of Justification? (accepted for publication in the Concordia Theological Quarterly).
"The Benefits of Christ: Double Justification in Protestant Theology Before the Westminster Assembly," Anthony T. Selvaggio, ed., The Faith Once Delivered: Celebrating the Legacy of Reformed Systematic Theology and the Westminster Assembly (Essays in Honor of Dr. Wayne Spear). (Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 2007).

I'm finishing a MS right now tentatively titled, Recovering the Reformed Tradition

Chris: Or what would you like to write next? Or what do you think needs to be written next?

Dr. Clark: I'm working on Olevianus' commentary on Romans. That is a long-term project. I expect to do a series of studies on the history of the doctrine of justification. After that I would like to work on Olevianus' De substantia and beyond that I'm not sure. If it were completely up to me, I would work on either the Leiden Synopsis or Polanus' Syntagma.

Chris: What do you think is the number one theological controversy of our day?

Dr. Clark: Most of my energy for the last several years has been directed toward the Federal Vision/covenant nomism question. I don't think that there is any more profound question than: "How are you right before God?" It dovetails with several other issues, e.g., how are we reckoning what it means to be Reformed? I am quite concerned about the rise of what I called Reformed Narcissism. A lot of folk seem to think that "I am Reformed. I think x, therefore x is Reformed." They seem shocked when someone tells them that, as it happens, x isn't Reformed at all, at least not by any recognizable measure of what it is to be Reformed.

Folk seem to think that so long as they believe in predestination that they can say anything they want and call it "Reformed." There is a lot more to being Reformed than believing in predestination. This sort of minimalism is the unhappy heritage of neo-evangelicalism and it isn't compatible with confessional Reformed theology.

We need to recover the idea that there is an objective definition of what is to be Reformed and that definition must be the Reformed confession.

Chris: Thank you for addressing this point. I get overly tired of hearing "Evangelical-Baptistic-Calvinist" types saying they are "Reformed." How is being a Calvinist yet rejecting the reformed creeds and confessions in anyway a license to being Reformed? Crazy times were living in..

Chris: Switching gears a little bit...I know you've been involved in some theological exchanges over the current "Covenant Theology" disputes...are we over the "hump" with all the "covenant" controversy of late? Or is it just beginning? If there is any one "key" thing you can say concerning this what would that be?

Dr. Clark: Who knows? One can hope it will end soon, but the sources of the attempt to revise our covenant theology aren't going away anytime soon and young people seem to be attracted to the revisions so it's likely to continue for some time. Warfield is correct. The idea of the covenant is architectonic to Reformed theology. Therefore, the struggle over the nature of Reformed covenant theology is really a struggle over the nature of Reformed theology.

Chris: Is it true that you've embraced exclusive psalmody? Tell us about that.

Dr. Clark: Not exactly. I've become convinced that we should only sing the word of God. I'm willing to sing any inspired, canonical text.

It shouldn't be regarded as odd, however. From the Reformation and for a very long time after we sang only inspired, canonical songs. To be sure, we were psalm-singers and I'm certainly willing to sing only psalms but at the moment I'm not convinced by the argument.

It's really a matter of the principle by which we worship. Our confessions agree and are very clear that, in worship, we are to do only that which God has commanded. The only question we are to ask is: What does God require? It's pretty clear that most folk actually operate on the Lutheran principle that we may do whatever is not forbidden. On the Reformed principle, however, where are we commanded to sing uninspired songs? It seems likely that "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" refers to parts of the psalter, but, for the purposes of discussion, let's concede that is uncertain. Even so, it is certain that we cannot simply assume that "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" means "uninspired" psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

Second, the only way to resolve the "worship wars" is to get back to basic principles. As long as it remains a contest between generations or over taste, the wars will continue because it will remain a contest between competing visions of what is permitted. Once we recognize that is the wrong question we will be ready to reconsider everything we do according to the biblical principle. In short, once we start asking the right question, most of the arguments will end.

Third, the more I read about the history of Reformed worship, the more I realize that much of what is happening is preventable. I read Calvin's Institutes in college. I noticed in seminary that we do not worship as we did in the 16th and 17th centuries. For years I assumed that there must be a really persuasive book written after the 17th century that caused us all to abandon the regulative principle and that, once I read it, I would see the brilliant arguments for myself. As it turns out that book doesn't exist. In American Presbyterianism, anyway, Isaac Watts, Jonathan Edwards, and George Whitefield (and the New Siders) in are the culprits in this story. They moved us away from the psalms to paraphrases and thence to hymns in order to heighten the intensity of religious experience in worship and to facilitate the "revivals." That's not exactly what we confess is it? It seems to me that the matter of "religious affections" is the business of the Holy Spirit who works as he wills through the Word and sacraments. We've had a nearly 300 year hiatus from the Regulative Principle. I say, let's try it again, just for kicks.


Chris: You and I are both members of the URC. From your standpoint how's that going? Is the URC making good progress since its formation?

Dr. Clark: I'm enthusiastic about the URC. I'm an American. I like new things. With new things there is more potential than history and disappointment. I'm still waiting, hoping, and praying that we will face the Federal Vision matter squarely. I don't see how a federation that patterns itself after the church order adopted at the Synod of Dort can refuse to address this issue the way our forefathers would have done.

I'm encouraged by the church planting that is happening. It would be great to see us get a little more organized. I don't see why, if we can have a synodical ecumenical committee I don't see why we can't have a synodical missions committee. As it is, our domestic church planting is haphazard. Who knows who our church planters or missionaries are? What are their needs? What are the opportunities and challenges? Where is there funding? I hope we can come up with answers to these questions.

Our third and perhaps our biggest challenge will be to decide whether we are content with being a "conservative" federation or whether we will be a "confessional" federation. There is a real difference. Conservative isn't enough. Being reactionary won't carry us very far. We need to confess the faith, we need to learn and teach our confession, and we need to operate on the basis of our confession. To the degree we refuse to do these things, to that degree one has to wonder why we bothered to leave the CRC?


Chris: What are the good points?

Dr. Clark: It is very encouraging to see young pastors standing up for our confession in the federation. There is a lot to like about our heritage and we have a lot to offer to North America, indeed, we have the greatest thing to offer, Christ and his righteousness through faith alone in Christ alone. It's heartening to be a part of a church plant (now a congregation) where folk are there because they love the preaching, the catechism, the worship, and practice of the faith.

Chris: Closing thoughts?

Dr. Clark: I'm sure I've said too much already, but thanks for asking.

Chris: You heard it first here! So all you "cranks" with computers logout now! Get in church and go to school!
Too funny…good times. Well this concludes the Twoth interview with Dr. Scott Clark. Check back often for more interviews. Until next time this is Chris Rehers with twoth.com and you've been Twothed!

/logout

You may also read Dr. Clarks personal Blog - The Heidelblog


-----------------------Interview by: Chris Rehers of twoth.com---------------------


*All introductory biographical information has been taken from Dr. Scott Clark's biographical page at http://www.wscal.edu/faculty/bios/clark.php To read more about Dr. Scott Clark and his work please visit
the URL.


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